This is the product of 4 years of VNIt, and a few more on my part, and a lot more on the part of my friend, Rahul (now doin even more thinking in IIT Powai)
Its a tribute to all those "discussions" in the hostel corridors, classrooms, mess halls, labs over the campus that we "compsci"s ever had .....
And this one just happens to be a favorite subject for a few of us.
Pardon the "level of abstraction" .... this is 2 compscis goin at it afteral l...
Thaks in advance to Rahul for this absolutely wonderful conversation ... I enjoyed while talking, as also wihle revisiting it each time ....
$h0unak: hows the tree of wisdom?
Sent at 2:09 PM on Tuesday
Rahul: it never ceases to blossom.
$h0unak: and the lateest flower yo plucked off it is : ?
Rahul: ah..but the flower is precious to me. How do i trust it with you?
$h0unak: valid concern....
justified,too
Rahul: in any case....here it goes...
i dont suppose u know the meaning of the word non-causal....
$h0unak: enlighten me
Rahul: ok...can u think of something being non-causal or let me put it this way...u can imagine
a causal thing right? i.e one that has a cause?
$h0unak: i guess
causality as put forth by the marovingian is pretty clear in my head
Sent at 2:14 PM on Tuesday
Rahul: for some time let go off all the definitions that u know of.....ya.u can think of it in
terms of the merovingian i.e something that has a cause i.e beginnig point......note that if
something has a beginning point all i have to do to destroy that thing is to back in time and
destroy the cause..
assume for a moment that u can go back in time
u thr?
$h0unak: as in travel faster than light?
jst had a look at a guy torchin his fart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRoYoExRMnU
Rahul: dont worry about the way to do it....just assume that u can go back in time and change
whatever u want to...
$h0unak: ok
Rahul: the point here is causality
$h0unak: yeah
i remember
my attention span has lessened somewat , of late
Rahul: that means a causal thing can in principle be destroyed simply by moving back in
time..now comes the million dollar question....
can u even imagine something noncausal...
?????
$h0unak: everything that happens has to have a beginning, but everything that is supposed to
happen will happen.
you can change the starting point, maybe, but then you are just creating a new set of
variables, another universe, maybe ...
something on the lines of the Schrodinger's Cat paradox
Rahul: nono...that aint the point...its far from it...what i talk of is something much much
more subtle..more mysterious and hence more unreachable....
$h0unak: subtlety?
Rahul: u say everything that happens MUST have a cause....?? right?? keep answering in yes or
no
$h0unak: um.....
ok..lets go along wth this line of thought..
YES
Rahul: all right....now what seperates something that happens and something that is GOING to
happen?
$h0unak: the occurence of the trigger
or the cause
Rahul: exactly.....which means it is the placement of cause and effect at two seperate times
that we call causality..note that cause and effect can never occur at the same time
..
now tell me this
$h0unak: by definition, the cause induces the effect
Rahul: suppose..just suppose there was something that was noncausal....firstly can u EVEN
imagine such a thing????? jsut can u imagine..just answer that...
$h0unak: ok. i assume a noncausal event
Rahul: let me ask u the above question in a totally differnet(but equivalent) way.....do u
think that IF there is a god , he can think??
$h0unak: exactly (almost) wt the event i had in mind
ws
i rather had the existence or inception of the divine itself as the evet
Rahul: nonono...whatever i am saying does not in any way say there is or there is no god...all
i am asking is this subtle and a very difficult question..do u think that god can think??
$h0unak: now that is tricky
indeed
he can
Rahul: i wont tell u whether u r right or wrong....because a man must realize the answer on his
own....all i wl say is this....
the answer to the above question has taken me 22 years to figure out and it has something to do
with the following question:
IF there is a god WHY would u want to go to him? and if u did go to him and achieve him what
would u do after that????
$h0unak: but how do you know that what you have figured out is the answer or the complete
answer and not a part of the answer?
its a question i would say, more of beleif, which you can call causal.
bt it may not be strictly causal
i beleive its our purpose to seek divinity
for we have energy to give back to this universe
and when we reach Him
we shall not have to ask him for anything
as then, we will have served our purpose
and that shall be the end of this journey
Rahul: i shall not justify myself on this point anymore because the nature of the answer is
like that....and believe me, all the questions that u have now i have had some years back...all
i wl say is..trust me..whatever u r saying..all this energy thing..all this can be
refuted..they are not causes or purpose at all..and as much as this might seem unbelievable...i
hope its atleast reachable
$h0unak: since our purpose ends there
we need not be concerned with what lies beyond
Rahul: and remember my friend...if the mind can think of something beyong god then it is
necessarily concerned with it....and this point is subtle....
let me give u another hint(i know i sound condescending but i cant help it)....would u get
bored if u could live forever???
$h0unak: :)
Rahul: or let me ask u another equivalent question
why the :) ?
$h0unak: wts the point of living forever if there is no purpose to drive us?
Rahul: ah....that my friend is an argument that cannot be refuted
$h0unak: it either means we are incapable of fulfilling our purpose even if we are granted all
eternity
Rahul: but the flaw is that the argument is infallible
$h0unak: or that we have an existence that is beyond obligations
Rahul: nono......i used to think like this about 3 years back
but since then i have "realized" the truth
$h0unak: its infallibiliy is a flaw beacause nothing can be perfect?
Rahul: nono...
more subtle
ok..answer this
whatever is the truth..whatever it is..do u think u can express it in a language??? justify ur
answer...(very very imp question)
$h0unak: no
Rahul: why not?
$h0unak: language is a medium that is not yet perfect
Rahul: nonononononon
$h0unak: even the simplest of thoughts may not be fully and properly conveyed in words
Rahul: language is perfect...only problem is it is not suited to expressing truth..and why do u
think is that
$h0unak: and to express something, you must understand it through and through
ambiguity?
Rahul: not exactly ambiguity...something close....
think abou tthe nature of the truth
whatveer is the truth,,what must it be like
$h0unak: :)
Rahul: why the truth CANNOT be expressed using logic??
why
a very finite reason exists
$h0unak: cnat fnd words rt nw itself.....
bcz logic requires a premise
and a predicate
Rahul: u r almost close....let me help u refine ur argument and state it with a little more
subtelty...
$h0unak: logic takes a cause and an effect and tries to verify if the effect was triggered by
the cause
Rahul: again almost close but not yet ther..not getting the most imp point
listen to me....
$h0unak: so when it encounters something that is a standalone, it finds o matching cause
Rahul: again very very close...but still one very very imp thing missing..
here it is
....
$h0unak: ...........
Rahul: i dont know much about the truth...but one thing i can tell u abou t it..whatever it
is..it must be irrefutable....that is there is no way to refute it.....because it is the
truth..u just cannot refute it...u should not be ABLE to refute it.....
that is u should not be able to challenge it
the word 'ABLE' is very imp here...
$h0unak: right...
Rahul: now...
any language u design
must necessarily have
the means to negate every sentence built into it
that is the nature of logic and language
whatever u can think of ..u can think of negating it
a language is defined like that
and hence if u could express truth in a language u can negate it...
$h0unak: that makes the mind inherently incapbale of thinking anything irrefutable, does it
not?
Rahul: u have spoken the words of god my friend......
i wish i was with u face to face right now
$h0unak: whoa
Rahul: we could have had a much better conversation
$h0unak: seriously
that day may not be far, if things go a particular way ...
Rahul: i hope so too..
so either the mind must be made to think
without a language
OR
if the mind CAN only thionk in a language
then it is impossible to perceive the truth using the mind
or a nlanguage for that matter
$h0unak: exactly
so when you feel something that you know is special,that you know is there, but you find
yourself simply incapable of articulating it
you should realisre that what you felt was pure
Rahul: ah....wisdom of the ages....very very pure are the words u speak my friend....i hope u
continue to think like this for a good part of ur life
$h0unak: i hope everyone gets to feel and realise this sometime in their stay on this earth as
an intelligent being
Rahul: now the point is this.....if a noncausal entity wanted to communicate with you...can he
succeed in doing it especially given that u r causal??? if yes how??? if no then what do we do
then??
$h0unak: interesting...hang on a sec
Rahul: all right
hey listen if u r busy then i dont wanna bea pain in ur ass....u just say the word and i'll be
out of ur hair...
Sent at 2:59 PM on Tuesday
$h0unak: yeah ..back again
if a noncausal entity were to communicate with us, then
we would miss its signals
or misinterpret them
Rahul: now u just hang on a sec....i'll be back in a moment....but in the meanwhile ponder over
this....
do u think it wl try to communicate using something causal such as signals or for that matter
DO U THINK IT CAN EVEN PRODUCE SIGNALS???
$h0unak: signal was just a term here
Rahul: do u think it can produce ANYTHING causal??
$h0unak: short for its means of communications
Rahul: just give me a moment ...i'll be back
$h0unak: hang on
lets continue this some other time
ive got a meeting to sleep thru...
btw, im saving this conversation text
Rahul: all right..until the next time or as they say ..until the next flower blooms
$h0unak: :)
Rahul: ur wish my friend
$h0unak: c ya soon. ...
Rahul: i hope so too..
still waiting for the next flower to bloom, but that will happen if and when its destined to
......
